tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33628427.post4507903446292617457..comments2023-04-04T05:26:45.596-05:00Comments on Initiative Or What?: Sandbox vs. Safety Rails - A Mini Blog CarnivalR.M. Walkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14907494310589680670noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33628427.post-79823203568136329112010-07-27T22:35:32.024-05:002010-07-27T22:35:32.024-05:00I grew up, D&D-wise, in a sandbox. I've ru...I grew up, D&D-wise, in a sandbox. I've run games as an adult that always wanted to be in a sandbox, but they weren't, quite - possibly because I learned to run a different edition than I grew up on.<br /><br />It may be that people who want a sandbox are also people to whom game balance is not the be-all and end-all that the game has been moving toward for the last two editions.Ianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15747687692750417615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33628427.post-49829080757424529982010-07-26T21:36:48.754-05:002010-07-26T21:36:48.754-05:00Thanks for this post. I just posted a shared it on...Thanks for this post. I just posted a shared it on FB. <br /><br />"players that want a more immersive experience are going to be disappointed in this style of play"<br /><br />I couldn't agree more. And what's worse is when your players decide to buck the rails, and then... since you were not running a sandbox game... you're scrambling as a GM to fill in the world around them that's just beyond the horizon (beyond the rails).<br /><br />We recently did something similar in a SR game; basically took a big boss final fight battle (that was expected) and turned it into a diplomacy, hide in seek.. and we never even reached the "final boss" in the adventure. Our GM... was scrambling to fill in the details. Fortunately, for a group of old school sandbox players, we just filled it in ourselves (that and the shadowrun universe is SO WELL defined, that's it makes it super easy to derail an adventure). Anyway... my point is that the GM was scrambling... and my advice for most new GMs is, regardless of the adventure, always play it like it's a sandbox. Try to prepare for the unexpected, build around the adventure. You'll end up with a safety net -- and the players will definately feel the difference. <br /><br />Ever played at a table where the GM was pushing the PCs to take some course of actions because that's the way the adventure was scripted??... <br /><br />[[shudders]]Jonathan Jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06133232985480734844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33628427.post-86695519650825548192010-07-11T07:03:25.182-05:002010-07-11T07:03:25.182-05:00Some article about sandbox vs safety rails as a re...<a href="http://forum.enerla.net/content/340-sandbox-vs-tactical-gameplay.html" rel="nofollow">Some article about sandbox vs safety rails</a> as a response to your blog spot. As you might see I came to very different conclusions.Enerlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00896822057588154258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33628427.post-88399535593062105322010-06-23T20:44:49.033-05:002010-06-23T20:44:49.033-05:00Latest post in this blog carnival: http://www.rpgm...Latest post in this blog carnival: http://www.rpgmusings.com/2010/06/blog-carnival-overpowered-sandboxes-and-just-right-rails/<br /><br />It's the 10th one, full links to all of the first nine can be found at the end of my post.<br /><br />Cheers,<br />DMSamuelDMSamuelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03463301994133619480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33628427.post-79481997865232605622010-06-23T10:36:38.326-05:002010-06-23T10:36:38.326-05:00@ChicagoWiz Thank you for providing the link. I c...@ChicagoWiz Thank you for providing the link. I continue to be interested in running a true sandbox campaign, and these tips are sure to help. <br />Thanks again!R.M. Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14907494310589680670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33628427.post-63738778983440062322010-06-23T10:29:35.932-05:002010-06-23T10:29:35.932-05:00@RM Walker - you're welcome.
http://oldguyrp...@RM Walker - you're welcome. <br /><br />http://oldguyrpg.blogspot.com/2009/06/dispelling-myth-sandbox-prep.html<br /><br />My point is that even an inexperienced DM can do a sandbox and I think a sandbox/story hybrid is easier than purely one or the other. <br /><br />My big AD&D sandbox has a constantly ticking running world dynamic behind it. It's up to the players to get involved one way or the other, but the world does move on without them. They have to make their mark.Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33628427.post-45148061905179124382010-06-22T18:08:20.690-05:002010-06-22T18:08:20.690-05:00It's funny. I was the first to reply on topic,...It's funny. I was the first to reply on topic, yet I'm still going around commenting on the other blogs because I still have more to say or people have brought up points that I wish I'd said more of. It really is a topic with a lot of room for discussion and commentary.WolfSamuraihttp://twitter.com/wolfsamurainoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33628427.post-4833917752185813302010-06-22T18:00:34.037-05:002010-06-22T18:00:34.037-05:00@WolfSamurai & Mr. Anonymous. Thank you for a...@WolfSamurai & Mr. Anonymous. Thank you for all the comments. I knew this was a pretty rich topic when Twitter exploded with it after @ThadeousC 's comments. Awesome discussion!R.M. Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14907494310589680670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33628427.post-35198618797362619722010-06-22T17:46:25.974-05:002010-06-22T17:46:25.974-05:00If I created or played in a Sandbox campaign, then...If I created or played in a Sandbox campaign, then I can reason that there would be areas in which would be too dangerous for the PC's but should be done within reason.<br /><br />For example, if the starting point of the Sandbox is in the village at 1st level, then the surrounding areas should be pretty much low-level encounters, but if the PC's were hell-bent on crossing the surrounding wilderness to the wastelands beyond, then they risk facing off against monsters or encounters that are way above their head.<br /><br />Nothing would kill enthusiasm for a campaign quicker than to have a random encounter table that calls for a CR 11 monster for a bunch of 1st level characters who got only three miles outside their village.<br /><br />Now for the Safe Rails campaign where essentially players do A, then need to do B, then can do either C or D, but must be done before E, it should be scaled for their level. Otherwise, what's the point? If the GM tells us that we need to rescue the princess from the dragon, but to do so we need to enlist allies, create armies, etc., that's cool. We'll spend the campaign doing that, but again if the first place we head off to, we encounter a full band of trolls and we get stomped, campaign is over.<br /><br />Now, if our first task is to get the aid of the dwarves and we're supposed to head off to dwarven lands and as players we decide to go off the rails, then it's our fault if we encounter a band of trolls.<br /><br />I can see how this could be considered a form of railroading, but all computer rpgs pretty much follow this format and well as computer sandbox games.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33628427.post-68755719462173851032010-06-22T16:58:55.099-05:002010-06-22T16:58:55.099-05:00I think that some of the ease (or lack thereof) of...I think that some of the ease (or lack thereof) of running one type of game or another really depends on the DM and the group. If your DM enjoys and is good at doing things on the fly, a sandbox game might actually be far easier than running a rails game. Other DMs would hate that level of improv and chaos. Some groups also love that freedom to do whatever they want at whatever time. Other groups aren't interested in the freedom and would look at you funny if you threw down a sandbox campaign for them. It's all about finding what the group finds most fun.<br /><br />I personally think that the best plan involves giving players the freedom to do whatever they want all while giving them every reason in the world to do exactly what I want them to do, but that's me.WolfSamuraihttp://twitter.com/wolfsamurainoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33628427.post-59614494696732903072010-06-22T16:24:37.562-05:002010-06-22T16:24:37.562-05:00@ChicagoWiz Before I respond to your comments, I ...@ChicagoWiz Before I respond to your comments, I wanted to give you a huge thanks for taking the time out to read the post. You're one of the Veterans, and I respect your input. It's appreciated.<br /><br />I suppose I should have been more specific on a couple of my comments. After reading it again, I realized that it sort of reads as if I'm put off by a sandbox campaign. I'm actually not. I still think, though, that compared to just plopping down an adventure, (prepared or otherwise), a sandbox campaign is going to require more overhead. I know you have excellent strategies for reducing this (I've read your posts on this subject), but I think for the average DM it might be more intimidating. If you find a link, I want to get it posted up here to help those that are still intimidated by running a sandbox, regardless of what edition they play.<br /><br />I guess some of my comments are related to fears of what might happen as opposed to what can be avoided. You're absolutely right when you say that if there's a power vacuum, then the DM should step in and fill that void. I agree, however, it does mean additional work (explaining what happened, historical back-fill, impact of new thing on area, etc.). Of course, one man's work is another man's pleasure, so perhaps that's where the part lies.<br /><br />Thanks again for the comments, Man. Thought provoking and appreciated!R.M. Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14907494310589680670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33628427.post-49218491228371444812010-06-22T16:00:58.110-05:002010-06-22T16:00:58.110-05:00----
The Sandbox is labor intensive for the DM. A...----<br />The Sandbox is labor intensive for the DM. A wide variety of adventures have to be made available so that the heroes always have an appropriately leveled quest they can undertake.<br />----<br /><br />Not true, in my experience. I started off with quite little - enough that the adventurers had about 3 destinations they could get to realistically at their level. There was one big "dragon in the backyard" that spanked them hard and taught them that not all encounters are "appropriately leveled" - that's to encourage thought, exploration and recon. It worked.<br /><br />As time has gone on, I've expanded the world, but there are still quite a few "one sentence only" or blank spaces for me to fill as the players explore.<br /><br />----<br />In a Sandbox campaign, it is quite easy for a band of heroes to encounter a situation that is well beyond their power (and level) to control. The only option in these cases (usually) is to run like you've never run before.<br />----<br /><br />Yes, and good! You would not believe how much fun it has been to watch my players quite happily plan for the day they mount the troll mage's head on a spike. And they may do it! Same troll that killed 7 PCs in one session.<br /><br />----<br />The Sandbox can be manipulated by clever heroes. Heroes of high level could (theoretically) take over their old home towns when they become powerful.<br />----<br /><br />This is not a bad thing! If that's what the players want, then it should go that way.<br /><br />----<br />The Sandbox can be prone to power vacuums when an iconic place setting in the Sandbox is defeated by the heroes.<br />----<br /><br />Why do you say that? And in the same breath, so what? Nature abhors a vacuum for sure, and a clever DM can and will fill the void with what logically comes if the players leave it as such. That's not a bad thing :)<br /><br />----<br />My analysis: The Sandbox is fun, but only for motivated players. The DM must have a massive amount of campaign information available for a Sandbox campaign to truly come alive. The DM must also be very good at providing "leads" to the players in order to seek out adventure. The leads must be varied and subtle, as anything else leads the heroes on to "The Safety Rails".<br />----<br /><br />I certainly respect your analysis, but I'm not sure it's correct as I've seen my experiences lead to the opposite. I have a "drop in" campaign where people play for their own reasons, but they have a good time doing it. They make their story, but I don't think it's so much as motivation as it is about compatible players. Some players want rails, some do not. I also don't think you need a massive amount of info - I wrote a blog post awhile back on busting that myth... I don't have the link off the top of my head.Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.com